Your Opinions Wanted - Subject: Alternate Universe Fics

[catscradle]

Okay, a friend of mine, being a dutiful reader and replying to a fic they thought was well written and entertaining, told a pair of authors that they did a great job with characterization in their fic. The pair of authors - very well known in the GW writing community, wrote back saying that while they appreciated the compliment, any characterization that seemed in character was entirely accidental - because all their fics were AU and by definition, they didn't have to be in character.

Now, I do appreciate the candidness there - but what the hell? Since when did AU imply OOC? AU merely stands, as was my understanding for the past 7 years, for Alternate Universe. This means that characters in the fanfic are found in situations/environments that fall outside of the canon. It doesn't mean, and never has, OOC or Out of Character. In fact, it's always been my opinion that AUs actually need to be in character more so that the readers can identify who the characters are. It should not be by name alone. An AU with OOC characters is an original piece of fiction. It's not fanfic. If nothing is there to reflect the characters or the plot of the show - there is nothing there that a fan would recognize. Authors need to have a little confidence and post that stuff to original fiction sites/list which are found all over the net.

What are the opinions of others on this matter?

While I'm ranting - comedy/humor writers. . . OOCing the characters does not a comedy make. The humor is more appreciated when you nail the characterization. Also, the more plausible the situation, the funnier it is. Few people can get away with out and out slapstick. Great when it's done well, really, really horrid when it's not. 3% of the writing population does slapstick well. Please, please, please, stop.

Today's Send a Hug: A friend of mine is having a horrible few days. Those of you that know her, please send a note of encouragement. *HUG*

Comments

[darthneko.livejournal.com]

I'll just chip in my $.02 on the AU/OOC thing... in a nutshell, no, you're *right*. For an AU to be good, for it to *work*, it needs to be a tightly in character as possible... even if it's taking the character and saying "if a, b and c of their past were changed and they were in this environment, then their base personality would probably become x, y, and x..." it's knowing the base well enough to extrapolate that which makes a good AU.

[yuukimiyaka.livejournal.com]

Like you, I believe that AU and OOC are two very different character tags. However, I can also understand their viewpoint. It's extremely difficult to write a completely AU fic (for example, Quatre as a medieval prince) in which the characters still grow up to act the same way as they do in the series. It takes a great deal more thought on the part of the author, and any author who achieves that balance should be proud of the accomplishment, not dismissive of it!

You don't have to have the exact same set of circumstances for a character to react the same way. But you have to understand enough about the world and life to realize that sometimes it takes more than just writing to achieve that balance. It takes actual thought.

[babaca.livejournal.com]

Actually almost all fanfiction is AU unless you are rewriting a specific scene in a given series. But I know what you mean. If the AU setting is medieval times, science fiction, or whatever, maintaining a sense of characterization is necessary to make the story work. If the characters are so OOC that you can't recognize them, then what you have is original fiction.

Unfortunately then you run into the bugaboo of "what is in character". No two people's perceptions of character are the same. I've read some OOC where I told the person the character seemed OOC and they didn't think so. (I'm talking about a really horribly written story where EVERYONE was horribly out of character, but as far as they were concerned everyone was in character).

[thebratqueen.livejournal.com]

I'm starting to find this coming up a lot. It's like the faction of people who think that just because a group of people mistakenly label any non-canon romantic pairing as "slash" it's okay to use "slash" to mean het pairings. Um - no.

For some God-unknown reason there's a group of fen out there who think that just because you're writing fanfic A) It's AU and B) you're therefore allowed to write whatever the fuck you want, regardless of whether it's in character.

Now the AU thing I can sort of get, in the sense that obviously it's not the same story as the original TV show/movie/book/whatever, and as long as we're not being so anal retentive as to demand that all fanfic be labeled AU, then we're fine.

But the OOC thing just floors me. How do you not get that you need to keep these guys in character? It's the characters that are selling the fic.

Yes, if you have a serious AU the characters are going to be a bit different from what they were (eg "What if Jim and Blair had lived in the 18th century? What if the Gundam pilots lived in Sunnydale? etc) but the core of the characters has to remain the same.

I seriously think this is one of those ideas that's been feeding off of itself. Somebody came up with the concept that fanfic means OOC and insisted on it strongly enough that little sheep followed along - same thing as the "slash doesn't always mean same sex" morons. They encourage each other so they're not going to hear us.

[catscradle.livejournal.com]

I appreciate your comments =) I do understand that it's difficult - writing in character is actually always difficult - but that doesn't mean you toss it away because it's hard. (and I know that's not what you were saying, I've just seen it done one too many times *g*) Two ways to write AUs are to 1) write the fic so that the plot and environment fit the characterizations of the characters you're using. For instance, if you need a loud obnoxious character, it's probably not a good idea to cast Trowa or Heero in the role. Don't cast your favorite character to play the lead if that character doesn't fit the role. 2) if you're running a what-if experiment - like "What if Trowa didn't grow up with the mercenaries, what if he grew up with loving parents?" - in that case, yeah, Trowa is going to be different. He may not even be recognizable - but given the context of the writing, we should be able to pick out that difference and think "Ah, so this is how he'd act in this environment. . ." The trick of the author is to make us think that things couldn't have happened otherwise for that character given the situation he/she has been put in. Also, if an author writes a situation like that, then the other characters need to in character to contrast that difference.

Casting Quatre as a medeivel prince doesn't alter his surroundings all that much. We can conceive of a Quatre that grows up in a different time period and born into royalty that doesn't act too differently than he does now. I think what the author needs to think about is why they want to put the characters in an AU setting. Is the author trying to show the characters in a new light? Is the author trying to show that the characters would act the same way given any situation? Is the author trying to illustrate that the character archetype fits a variety of environments/plots. Or is the author simply writing an AU because they like medievel fantasy stories and wouldn't it be nice of Duo was a prince? If it's the last one, the author needs to ask themselves if fanfiction is the option for them, rather than an original story.

And you're right - it takes actual thought for writers to recognize the difference between a good story idea and a bad one. I think many writers out there write and post any idea that crosses their mind - rather than taking the time to really flesh the story out and see if it works first.

Thanks for the comments! =)

[yuukimiyaka.livejournal.com]

Disregarding the idea of OOC for a moment, I tend to think that most AUs are about "what if." A "what if" story isn't confined to the canon story setting. I could just as easily write "What if Wufei was a Paladin in Krynn" as "What if Duo had never been orphaned." We will also, for the moment, disregard the idea that all fanfiction is AU by default. Having stated that, I'll go back to the crux of the issue: OOC.

I don't think you necessarily have to write the plot and environment around the actual character, particularly for an AU (of the type I described above.) More, it's about understanding the character well enough to find a balance between the actual personality and the changes made because the environment has changed.

For example: In a story where Duo isn't orphaned, he still might retain the boisterous, loud personality everyone writes him with. But instead of it being a "false mask" to hide his angsty past, it might be his actual persona. In a story where Wufei is a paladin from Krynn, he will still have the obsessive views of weakness and honor, due to his training, but he would likely not be as mysogynistic as he is in the series. That's still OOC, despite the changes.

People's personalities change depending on to whom they are talking, as well. And your perceptions of a character are likely remarkably different from mine. Fanfiction is often about offering to others what you see in the characters, not trying to keep to their points of view.

A final note about fanfiction versus an original story: Yes, a story where the characters are OOC and the setting is AU is technically an original story (just as fanfiction is AU by default), there is still some merit to retaining it as a piece of fanfiction. Again, if you care enough to try to understand the characters about which you are writing, there is the potential that even in such a setting, you can show others what you see in the character. It's all about perception and caring.

Now, this is based on your original post, which discussed a good story where your friend was complimenting the authors on characterization. I am not basing my statements above on poorly-written and un-thought-out fanfiction, which I do not read any more.

[catscradle.livejournal.com]

I think we need to get away from the idea that if a fic isn't canon (which it can never be), it's AU. We know the story isn't from the original writers and thus isn't canon. That's a given. I think in the realm of fanfic we can safely say that if the fic keeps to the same setting and time frame, it's not AU. In the way I've seen this argument used, especially in GW by a few popular writers there, seems to be merely an excuse for writing out of character as much as their little hearts content. Now if they want to do that, fine. But they should call a spade and spade - bite the bullet and just say they wrote out of character - dont' try to cover it with an "All Fanfic is AU and OOC" argument. It doesn't wash.

All characters have a core to them. Maybe we have trouble tapping into to that core - I know I can't write a decent Wufei to save my life - I don't get into his head, so writing him is very hard for me - hence why none of my fics center around the guy (I'm agonizing over this Wufei fic Vasiliki asked me to write *g*). We also all interpret the characters a bit differenly from the next person (this is why it floors me that some writers base their characters and stories off of other people's fanfic without ever watching the series themselves - no matter how good the model author is, you're not going to have the same exact interpretation based off the same canon source material - the copies start deteriorating the quality - but that's a different rant ;)). However, given all that - the characters still all have a core to them. There are margins for interpretation - but that core remains. Not all Duo's need be the same - You can have a more sympathetic Duo or a more bastard Duo - but it needs to fall within the margins.

Keeping that in mind, there can be better interpretations than others. A Duo that's weepy and school girlish is a bad interpretation. A Duo that's stupid as all hell and baffoonish is a bad interpretation. A Duo that has a brain, cracks jokes, kicks ass, makes mistakes, sticks his foot in his mouth upon occasion - that's a good interpretation. And there's a lot of room for people to do things with him without repeating what's gone before.

So people can say "That's just my interpretaion" - it doesn't, however, make it a good one. And it doesn't make the fic okay because they qualified it with that statement. Which isn't to say that everyone should be a great writer or not write at all. I don't want to give that impression - I really don't find that much of I'm a great writer either - It just kinda riles me when people get pissy, mean or try to act superior about it.

[catscradle.livejournal.com]

I don't think you necessarily have to write the plot and environment around the actual character, particularly for an AU (of the type I described above.)

I didn't say you had to write an AU in this manner - I listed it as one of the ways you could write it. And yeah, a lot of writing is successfully is finding that balance of personality and environment. I wasn't arguing against that. That again goes to knowing the core of the character I mentioned in a reply to another poster. There are margins the author has when writing a pre-established character. As long as you have the framework down, there's a LOT of leeway for the actions of the character. It's just another way of saying balance.

Fanfiction is often about offering to others what you see in the characters, not trying to keep to their points of view.

Yes and no - each person brings their own interpretation to the characters. I should not, however, be seeing the author's person point of view over the character's. For instance, if the author would have cried given a certain situation, that doesn't mean the character would have too. The character and the author are not interchangable and the author should NEVER stick themselves in where the character should be. The term for this is Mary Sueing the character.

Yes, a story where the characters are OOC and the setting is AU is technically an original story (just as fanfiction is AU by default), there is still some merit to retaining it as a piece of fanfiction. Again, if you care enough to try to understand the characters about which you are writing, there is the potential that even in such a setting, you can show others what you see in the character. It's all about perception and caring.

Or you're showing what you'd rather see than what is - which might make an interesting statement on the psychology of fanfic, but still doesn't make for good fanfic writing. As long as the balance/framework remains and there's something of the characters that remains, then the AU has a point outside of the author's own mind - otherwise, it's merely self-indulgent fantasy.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

Huh. On the AU thing – I tend to use AU to mean not only the obvious (Its Star Wars! Except set in 4th century France!) but also when we’re in a version of the canon universe, but it has been changed significantly *as a premise*.

The as a premise part is so that “but I got Bart and Millhouse together, that’s not on the show” does not make it AU, since then everything is and the term becomes meaningless. The significantly part is obviously in the eye of the beholder. OTOH, if in your world Buffy was always a vampire and Angel was the Slayer, that’s AU. To me. Your mileage may vary.

In any case, when it doubt, a few more words will go a long way to clarify. Case in point, Keren and I describe our Spike/Buffy series Strange Bedfellows as taking place in “an alternate Buffyverse that diverges after Crush.” You may not consider that a true alternate universe – I’m not even sure I do -- but it does get the point across. We started with canon, then we took the road less traveled by, and since it’s been a while our timeline looks pretty damned different by now.

As for the Out of Character thing – stretching my benefit of the doubt until it groans in pain -- *maybe* what they’re trying to say is that there’s two ways to do AU. One of them is basically “A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court”, where the fun is to take a character who is exactly the way we know and love them, and see what they’d make of some other setting or people. But there is another, which is to see what so and so might have turned out like in different circumstances. So there you do get to take a step away from the canon to play out the thought experiment.

Maybe they do option 2? But I wouldn’t call that out of character. You still need to hold the rest of the character constant, and you need to show why *this* person in particular would have reacted this way in particular.

*puzzled*

Mer

[catscradle.livejournal.com]

*nod* exactly. Not much I can say here except - word.

But again, I really think people have to cut with the "All fanfic is AU" stuff. Yeah, we know that it's not canon and by default it's AU. The problem there is that people use this as an excuse to write OOC/AU without acknowledging it - even getting snotty about it. It reminds me of a fic where an author used a complete canon background and wrote the characters about as OOC as you could get - the argument was that since all fics are AU, then she couldn't possibly write OOC. Huh? There are still logical rules to follow.

[http://users.livejournal.com/ari_/]

I'm thinking that maybe the writers in question (should I try to make an educated guess on who it was?) are mostly yaoi writers, and if you do go by the literal definition of yaoi, then being in character doesn't matter anyway...

A trend I've always seen in GW (and sometimes in other anime fandom, too) is that authors slap OOC and AU on practically every story, as a kind of "if you don't like it, look, it's OOC and AU, so don't you *dare* say anything bad about it, because if you do, I'll call you a mean and accuse you of flaming me and am going to rant/whine on at least 5 lists, behaving like a mega-dramaqueen". It's as if they're using it as a shield, to make themselves untouchable to criticism.

Besides, several of the "well-known GW authors" aren't really *good* authors, they just live on the hype they get from tons of screaming teenage fangirls...

But, bottom line is: no, I don't think AU automatically means OOC. Whoever it was, they're just nuts.

[catscradle.livejournal.com]

Oh my god, is that Purple Tenticle! I love him! I have to go find my version of Day of the Tenticle now *g*

Anyway - I doubt most GW writers even know what true yaoi means - other than another word for slash *groan* - but no, the fic in question was not even yaoi, so they weren't refering to that.

You're right on about the fangirls though. . . Unfortunately the teenage part usually only refers to their mental age. =P

[http://users.livejournal.com/ari_/]

*g* yes, that's him, in all his glory. The game does run perfectly on a Win98 machine, but I don't know about later versions. If you can't find your disks, let me know, I have mine lying around.

Unfortunately the teenage part usually only refers to their mental age. =P

well, if they *behave* like teenagers, I'm going to call them teenagers.

GW seems to be a specialized kind of fandom: sitting in it's own little corner, with definitions that are just slightly different that what you'd be used to when you come in from either pure slash or pure yaoi...

[catscradle.livejournal.com]

Word. *g*

Yeah . . . I still say the authors would be a lot better off if they actually thought about what they wrote rather than wrote a fic for every little idea that crossed their minds. Like write now, for instance, I'm noodling over a silly fic idea for placing the Gundam Pilots and the Oz crew as opposing teams in Junk Yard Wars. It was a silly fun thing to think up while riding the bus, but would it work and would people care - that's the question ;)

As for your AU "two ways" comment - I mentioned the same two ways just above. Nope. The comment was that they didn't have to write in character, didn't even want to write in character, because they were writing AUs. It was actually being very arrogant about it - and in my opinion tried to belittle the person that replied to their fic. I know it's hard to believe, I certainly do not understand this, but some people really think that AU means no rules whatsoever. Anything goes. And because they're popular writers, I guess they can get away with it. So I guess that means there's also a big audience for OOC/AU fics - but then, there's also a big audience for bodice ripper romances. Doesn't make them good. *shrug*

[catscradle.livejournal.com]

On Purple Tenticle - very cool! If I can't find it, I'll take you up on that. My laptop is '98, so it should run fine =) Thanks!

GW seems to be a specialized kind of fandom: sitting in it's own little corner, with definitions that are just slightly different that what you'd be used to when you come in from either pure slash or pure yaoi...

They want to claim both - which is fine, except most of the writers think that yaoi means a fic just needs graphic sex to fit the definition. I actually think that yaoi is best suited for doujinshis/comics only - crossing the term over to fics is just confusing to people - and "yaoi/shonen-ai" fall into use so that non-native Japanese speakers can feel more culturally alert about themselves. PWP works fine for yaoi and shonen-ai - add a rating to it to distiguish the level if you want.